Replies: 11 comments 2 replies
-
Well if we are realistic the iOS app is dead and therefore does not need to migrate to the new platform. The existing translations can stay on Transifex for the time being (imo) 🤷 |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
I think the relevant parts of Transifex's terms of service are (highlighting mine): Your Words & Your PrivacyBy using the Services, you provide us with information, files, and folders that you submit to Transifex (together, “your words”). You retain full ownership of your words, and Transifex has no ownership rights in your words. These Terms do not grant us any rights to your words or intellectual property except for the limited rights that are needed for Transifex to run the Services, as explained below. We may need your permission to do things you ask us to do with your words, for example, hosting your files, or sharing them at your direction. This includes product features visible to you, for example, image thumbnails or document previews. It also includes design choices we make to technically administer our Services, for example, how we redundantly backup data to keep it safe. You give us the permissions we need to do those things solely to provide the Services. This permission also extends to trusted third parties we work with to provide the Services, for example, RackSpace, which provides our storage space (again, only to provide the Services). To be clear, aside from the rare exceptions we identify in our Privacy Policy, no matter how the Services change, we will not share your content with others for any purpose unless you direct us to. How we collect and use your information generally is also explained in our Privacy Policy. You are solely responsible for your conduct, the content of your words and files, and your communications with others while using the Services. For example, it is your responsibility to ensure that you have the rights or permission needed to comply with these Terms. You grant Transifex a non-exclusive, world-wide, perpetual, royalty-free, irrevocable, sublicensable and transferable license to use your words for purposes of performing the Services. You agree to indemnify Transifex for any third party claims, demands or losses arising as a result of your failure to obtain all such necessary rights, permissions and authorizations. We may choose to review public content for compliance with our community guidelines, but you acknowledge that Transifex has no obligation to monitor any information on the Services. We are not responsible for the accuracy, completeness, appropriateness, or legality of files, user posts, or any other information you may be able to access using the Services. Sharing Your wordsThe Services provide features that allow you to share your words with others or to make your words public. There are many things that users may do with those words (for example, copy it, modify it, re-share it). Please consider carefully what you choose to share or make public. Transifex has no responsibility for that activity. I did not check the Privacy policy yet but to me it seems that Transifex explicitly states that they will not (can not) use your translations in any way unless you give explicit permission 🤔 |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
I would be fine with that. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
I did not check full docs yet either, but what you quoted is entirely reasonable and even necessary for them to even allow us the basic translation functionality. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@Krzmbrzl Boy did you get conned. Let's read what it actually says, keeping in mind what it tries to say, by the words it elects to put to use. (Crowdin does the same thing btw.)
There is an exception, double negative "not share your content with others, unless (operative word) you direct us to" 4x negative
may. Look for the word "may" in documents such as these. Keep reading till there is a clause thrown in with a bunch of other stuff, that is where the payload is. And now, for the "aside from the rare exceptions we identify in our Privacy Policy" "will not share your content with others" "unless you direct us to". That sure sounded nice… https://www.transifex.com/legal/privacy/
Collected.
Aggregated (read accumulated)
"translations you submit" is "information". We use your personal information for the following purposes: Sold
Tracked
Datalogged tracking
Bingo
Sent
Honeypot
Which there are a lot of, look at all the scripts.
This is where you usually find the dead giveaways if you have no time to comb through all the spaghetti language and tricks.
Who would do such a thing? And with that said, there is still the @Kissaki You aren't even wrong there, specifically. It however isn't "entirely reasonable" in isolated fashion :) https://hosted.weblate.org/legal/terms/ is the Weblate equivalent, and if that is somehow unreasonable in any way, it can be self-hosted. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Your uncouth and dismissive tone makes it hard to read, reason and discuss.
What’s your point? What’s your argument here? Of course they need the right to process our data, because they are operating on it. So they need the rights to do so.
Two independent terms that both contain double negatives does not make it a four times negative. It makes it two (separate) double negative. They say they will not share our content unless we instruct them to. What’s your issue with that?
Please stop using quotes if you are not quoting but adding your own content to it. It makes it very confusing. I have no idea what you are trying to say here. It seems you are completely misinterpreting and misrepresenting what that paragraph says and talks about.
Where in this do you read sold? If you integrate Transifex into other services or payment operators they have to share some data to be able to operate. This is about being able to operate. Not to sell data.
I contacted them about clarification on this one.
They list these in the context of and after this intro (emphasis mine):
I do not see an issue here. They seem to be aware of that they can not simply use them at their will, but only if reasonable.
Broad. I asked them about it. Section 5. European Economic Area Residents does not seem to comply to GDPR. I contacted them about it. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@davidebeatrici I would have preferred this to remain an issue ticket as it is actionable and has a task associated to it. I can see how the followup/associated discussion could be considered a discussion though. Although I’m not sure yet when and how to use “discussions”. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@comradekingu Can you clarify what you mean by retroactively relicense? Aren’t the contributions remaining under the same license? At least for us? What you do have to agree to to continue to use their service is to give them more rights what they can use it for. Is that what you mean? What is written in the terms and privacy policy? |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@Kissaki I am not disputing the idea of processing data, I am questioning why something valid is in there with a functionally different claim. That is masking the intent of the second part, and it is textbook legalese. I was just counting the negatives, you are correct, and my point still stands. The word "may" is a giveaway, that grants rights without sounding specific. Again, textbook legalese.
This is where I read "sold". Look up what those third-party services are. What do you think "products and services they request from blank is? What do you think "contractual relationship" entails? You can run down the riddles and labyrinths, and you get "sold". What sort of clarification do you think you are going to get? Combining user info with personal info in a blanket statement is as clear as it gets. You don't have any rights left, because they are contractually signed away. "interests" are only valid in the legal sense. I asked them to give me my data under GDPR, they think they are just a provider and aren't obliged to do so. As for the legality of putting the work of others under those terms, I am not going to attempt understanding the different licenses and jurisdictions there. The Crowdin Terms and Conditions have a waiver against it, so imagine it is illegal. Mumble was on there pretty early, so there is that. Example of indemnification:
Doesn't sound alarming at all. Or? What if people under 18 could contribute freely without having to contact an e-mail to turn off personal data and personally identifiable information? What if everyone didn't have to read 3496 words in the Terms of Service alone? TL;DR Nothing about Transifex is good. No need to evaluate what is clear to see, (edit: nearly every) translator prefer Weblate, and it has much better terms, and is libre software. It is just one of those times when the alternative to the objectively bad is (edit: almost a) diametrically opposite deal. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
Holy shit dude. This is not your project and not your decision. Your opinion and worldview is not the only one, and not the allmighty defining one. If you do not want to offend other people you should really work on how you communicate. I appreciate you caring for this project, which is a community project after all. But your tone is triggering me; frustrating and offending me. When you make strong, extreme arguments, and state stuff as facts rather than opinions when they are not clearly so, you will trigger moves to the opposite extreme rather than a common understanding or compromise. I had to be very mindful and corrective on myself multiple times in this interaction to not fall into this trap because of how you present yourself here. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Weblate (emphasis mine)
Privacy Policy section does not (explicitly) mention it though.
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@Kissaki Good finds. Hosted Weblate runs self-hosted Matomo, and may want to send out advertisements about the service. (There is an opt-out for the latter in 5.3).
I read this to also mean other ads, so that isn't good. The real issue is with "marketing" - "needs of the Provider's contractual partners". I have talked to "the provider" Michal Čihař about the 6.3. I don't think that is legal unless followed up with a provision the user specifically agrees to. (which that arguably is depending on jurisdiction). What I think it was meant to say is that the license the project currently has for its strings is granted to all others, which would only mean something for proprietary license translations. I'll ask again as I forgot why I accepted the answers I got. @Kissaki You are right. There is with those provisions no future-proofing in going with Hosted Weblate (so the full intended benefit would have to be from self-hosting Weblate). Weblate is not perfect (I can get into the details which are mostly to do with the UI), but it does improve, Transifex is almost stagnant. Crowdin does change some things, but has all the tracking issues of Transifex, and is fundamentally held up by its voting system leaving errors unchanged without a third party, and that makes ensuring consistency so much harder than it should be. I was never able to without getting in first. Both Transifex and Crowdin don't allowed non-logged in users to see any strings, which is a non-starter. In Weblate it is possible to leave suggestions without an account. Pootle, Translatewiki and so many others are not contenders for other reasons, but those weren't in the running, so I didn't mention them. Financially, between the as-a-service offerings, only Hosted Weblate is actually gratis for libre software. Crowdin does not provide a "free" service for open-source as stated, but rather "If you're building awesome non-profit projects". It is (only) possible to be "open-source" and "non-profit" in the monetary sense. Transifex engages in monetary discussions as it pleases, and has done so with other libre software projects like elementaryOS. It is a bad place to be, and while I am under no impression I make decisions for Mumble, or that my past contributions or ability to make them in the future matters, I hope it can avoid as much. elementaryOS moved to its own self-hosted Weblate platform, and increased activity and brought the number of failing checks down greatly after doing so. Edit: In the original thread - https://www.transifex.com/explore/projects/ was cited with "many open source projects using it already". I actually did recommend Transifex to projects when it was the best option, some 10 years ago. Even tried to help them. Edit2: We have updated our terms
As was mentioned above "legitimate interests" only mean what is legally permissible when said terms are accepted Processing your information is necessary for our legitimate interests or the legitimate interests of a third party, provided those interests are not outweighed by your rights and interests. These legitimate interests may include the following:
I should think that confirms the issue. Only "operate smoothly" and "data security" is legitimate in the colloquial sense. Edit3: As stated in firstpost, Mumble would actually not have to self-host because it is two projects. https://hosted.weblate.org/hosting/
|
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
We discussed this in our meeting today and decided that the raised terms issues are not a critical issue that would require immediate attention or an immediate switch. Nevertheless we want to explore the alternatives to Transifex to potentially improve usability and terms/provider concerns. As such, this discussion is hereby closed. We will explore the alternatives in #4641. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
See conclusion to this discussion in the last reply.
@comradekingu in #1180 (comment) mentions Transifex supposedly forces you to agree to relicense everything you contributed on the platform retroactively. They have concerns about or do not want to share this data for the Transifex global translation database (used I presume primarily for translation suggestions).
Confirm Transifex Issues
First we should confirm these issues. Check on the license and what Transifex forces you to agree to by using the service. If this user has concerns so will others, so this arguably is a critical issue for our translations.
Alternative Services
If we decide to switch, we have to decide to what.
Crowdin
A while ago I mentioned on IRC how I was very positively impressed by crowdin.
They provide a free (hosted) option for open source projects (pricing).
We will have to check their licensing approach as they provide similar cross-project suggestions to Transifex (plus more with machine translation?).
Weblate
Weblate is an open source solution that was suggested, which looks good. features
We would have to self-host as the free for open source hosted solution is only for one project (we currently host two with the iOS app as a second one).
I would rather not have another self-hosted service for our team to manage.
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
All reactions